Episode 5: Neil sits down with...BAFTA Nominated Film Editor Adam Gough

Neil Hancock: 00:00:11
(Music) Hello, everyone.  I’m Neil on Wheels.  And this is my new podcast.  I can’t walk the walk but I can talk the talk.  I’m a wheelchair actor who wasn’t able to work during the pandemic but rather than sitting around doing nothing, I thought I’d sit around doing something.  In this series, I’ll be chatting to people in the theatre, TV and film industry about the challenges they’ve overcome in order to achieve great things in life.  In this episode I’ll be chatting to Adam Gough, Editor of Oscar winning film Roma, of which he was nominated for a BAFTA.  He has also just finished editing Spike Lee’s film Da 5 Bloods, and both are available to watch on Netflix at the moment.  And on a rare break from his busy work schedule, he has very kindly given up his time to chat with me all the way from New York.  Hello, Adam.

Adam Gough: 00:00:58
Hi Neil, how are you? 

Neil Hancock: 00:00:59
Fine, thank you, yes.  And, how is New York?

Adam Gough: 00:01:02
It’s good.  I’m not getting out at the moment, so I’m not sure if I have the best of perspectives on everything.  But it’s holding its own and being responsible, and keeping safe, and as good as it can be.

Neil Hancock: 00:01:15
I remember when I was last in New York in 2013, and I hired an electric wheelchair out there, and the wheelchair broke down in the middle of a busy intersection, and I had to be carried over by some very lovely people to the other side of the road.  So, I have very fond memories of New York, but there are some memories I could do with editing out so to speak, if you know what I mean.

Adam Gough: 00:01:38
Yeah.  I would think so, yeah.  (chuckles)

Neil Hancock: 00:01:40
So it’s thanksgiving over there and you’re having a few days break from your work schedule.  When you’re not working, what do you do to relax and unwind?

Adam Gough: 00:01:52
That’s a very good question because I kind of seem to be continuing to work even in downtime.  So I’m working on a documentary at the moment, and I have an extended reading list from the director and there’s certain elements that I’m catching up on.  So, if I’m not in the office in front of an Avid...in front of the editing system, I’m kind of back at my apartment doing research or helping out on little side projects.  So even though editing is my job, it’s my career, it’s also my hobby.  So I kind of do it too much, I need to come up with another hobby and get out more, to be honest. 

Neil Hancock: 00:02:31
Now, for people who are unfamiliar with what an editor actually does, can you just give us in the broadest sense of what you do... what your job entails?

Adam Gough: 00:02:40
Absolutely.  So, when a film, or TV or visual medium is shot, we receive all of the dailies, all of the footage, and we edit it together, we cut it altogether into the film.  So that’s kind of the basic oversight of what an editor does, and then the level of detail of that is…grows exponentially.

Neil Hancock: 00:03:02
Have you always been in work as an editor?  And if not, were there times where…?  What did you do when you weren’t?

Adam Gough: 00:03:10
I have been, I’ve been fortunate enough that when I was a kid and making short films, it was part of that process that I enjoy, so I wanted to be an editor from an age where I had a realistic idea of what career I wanted to have.  So I went to university with that in mind, didn’t know how I’d get into the industry but I was fortunate enough to get an opportunity and to work in the cutting rooms, and I started as an apprentice editor, as an assistant editor.  And then over a decade of that, it was my apprenticeship to becoming a full-blown feature editor.  So, I have only experienced real jobs outside of this when, at university and as a kid, at school when I used to work at Tesco’s and then John Lewis, so a bit of sales in my…as a student.

Neil Hancock: 00:04:02
And I knew from a young age I wanted to be an actor, but what was the defining moment when you decided: I want to be an editor.

Adam Gough: 00:04:10
I think when I was…I always loved film, maybe kind of, you know, I have a strong friendship group and I’d probably was at a young age, a bit of a loner where I would just watch movies.  I would just kind of…that would just be what I would, just as a kid, just repeating the same films on VHS, and I love the medium.  And then when probably around 15, when I got my hands on a video camera at school and started making short films with my friends, and putting those together, that was when kind of like the bug really hit.  I knew I wanted to work in film, and then like progressing through that, making more shorts, it was realising that that was the part of the process that I enjoyed the most.  As there were certain elements with filming and directing where I felt it was out of my control but editing was the part of the process where I felt I had the most creative influence on what I was doing, and it was the bit that I just loved and just wanted to be an editor from that moment.

Neil Hancock: 00:05:10
Fantastic.  Now, moving on from that, I know you’re a big fan of Buster Keaton.

Adam Gough: 00:05:17
Yes.

Neil Hancock: 00:05:17
And what is it about what he does that excites you as an editor?

Adam Gough: 00:05:24
Well, firstly he’s an amazing editor himself, so he did edit a lot of his shorts and was an editor on The General in his work.  It was just… Buster Keaton I think is just one of the true film makers that understood every like aspect of filmmaking, and he would film his stunts in a way where he knew how he wanted to edit them, and they would be designed within frames.  So he would always want you not to kind of see the trick in a stunt, he wouldn’t want to cut away and cheat it.  So he try to do it in the frame but at the same time he knew the power of editing and how he can do a punchline for it, so he would cut a, you know, cut out the wide shots to reveal details, and there’s still…  It’s kind of like editing 101, just watching Buster Keaton you learn so much I think in all aspects of filmmaking, and there’s this physical comedy element of it which I’m just drawn to.  Oh, and I remember just at school like Jackie Chan movies, you can see that Jackie Chan is…Buster Keaton was a big influence on him and his filmmaking and I’d like to be able to work on some type of physical comedy like that in the future.  

Neil Hancock: 00:06:34
So if someone was to come to you with a film like that, is it very much, you go where the work is now or do you tend to go for passion projects as well where you think, “Oh, yes, I like the look of that.  I’m going to go for that.”

Adam Gough: 00:06:48
For me at the moment I’m fortunate enough to be working for a couple of directors that keeping me very, very busy.  And for me, it’s very difficult to kind of judge a project because I’ve read fantastic scripts, and then seeing them like not necessarily projects I’ve been involved with, and then seeing how it’s evolved, and the most important part for me as an editor is the director.  So if I…if I don’t kind of share the vision that a director has then I’m probably not going to be as interested in the project.  It could be something I really want to do but then they could film it or have, you know, something different in mind and I don’t want to be kind of battling a director’s vision for a project, I want to kind of be working on it with them.  So that’s at the moment like the most important part for me in choosing a project is kind of that relationship.

Neil Hancock: 00:07:44
I see.  

Adam Gough: 00:07:45
And I don’t think it’s like for something like a Buster Keaton project, I’m not sure if there’s…I don’t know what actors or directors are doing anything like that at the moment, he was just, you know, such a special talent.  It’s just like the, you know, the Great Stone Face, it’s just the way that he had to.  And also going back to your earlier question about what you can learn from editing in Buster Keaton projects, it’s definitely something you can tell with how the medium has changed because everyone always says you can read so much emotion off Buster Keaton’s face which is probably an interesting… I’d love to hear your feedback on it as an actor because, you know, he would always be deadpan but you’d always know like his reaction with the eyes.  But Buster Keaton never used close shots, the close ups, it was always in mediums, in wide, and I think that talking about an actor that had a deadpan expression where you could read so much emotion off their face, and they never have to rely on a close up as well kind of can teach you a lot about filmmaking and the cinematic language.

Neil Hancock: 00:08:44
Absolutely.  I remember watching a short film of his called I think it was The Goat?

Adam Gough: 00:08:49
Yeah.

Neil Hancock: 00:08:50
And it was so frenetic, so funny but at the same time as you say so deadpan.  And I never thought about the…not seeing the close ups but you’re absolutely right, it’s quite amazing.  So going then to how you then started out, you went to university, and I believe you went to university in Southampton and you did a film and video production course there I believe.  And does that mean you are a Southampton supporter in terms of football?

Adam Gough: 00:09:19
(Chuckles) I am not, I’m an Everton supporter, so you can read into that how you like.  I do have…  Growing up in that part of the country, I do have a soft spot for Southampton and Bournemouth.

Neil Hancock: 00:09:32

So when you were at university in Southampton, what were the main things that you learned there that you’ve taken with you on your career today?

Adam Gough: 00:09:42
Yeah, so with especially going, with university, I didn’t necessarily know how that would translate into the film industry so I had this idea of wanting to be an editor but I did not have a real understanding of what the route would be, what course I would need to kind of get my foot in the door.  So it wasn’t necessarily the…I’m not sure if correct is the right word but the most succinct course to do, but it kind of played out pretty well for me ultimately.  The reason I chose that course was because of a girl originally so I was going to go up to Bradford and been accepted into Bradford University and then got into a relationship towards the end of my A levels, and I changed universities to be closer to her, so that kind of explains my thought process at that age for kind of how seriously I was taking this.  But it actually played out very, very well in my favour because it was a very technical degree, so it was a bachelor of science and it was…there were sound technology and video technology but rather than kind of making and studying on the filmmaking side of it, it was the technology behind it, so I learnt all about the kind of…the video signals and cables and learnt about kind of sound, and in fact having to kind of how to wire a cinema for sound and doing RT60 for checking the EQ in the room, so I learnt all of these very technical details of kind of the…  You don’t necessarily need in the industry but when I got my foot in the door as an assistant, all of these skills helped greatly because it was—as an assistant editor, your job is more technical than creative, so with all of the skill, it helped me progress very quickly and just knowing how to kind of set up the editing software and understanding all of that stuff.  So even though there wasn’t too much of a thought process behind it, it definitely kind of sped earlier in my career, and then I was fortunate enough to work with great editors and that’s why I say I feel like my job has been as an apprenticeship element to it, so I did learn more of the craft rather than going to film school and learning about cinema, like learning it by working with editors and great directors in those first few years of being an assistant editor.    

Neil Hancock: 00:12:12
Absolutely.  And in your first job after leaving Southampton I believe was as an editorial runner on Stormbreaker? 

Adam Gough: 00:12:20
Yes.

Neil Hancock: 00:12:20
A film I remember, I watched it many years ago.  How did you go about getting that job?

Adam Gough: 00:12:27
So that was actually work experience, getting that opportunity.  So after university, I had no contacts in the film industry.  I just did not know how that was going to work.  At the beginning I didn’t…I wanted to work in film, that was kind of like my dream progression but I didn’t know if I was going to, you know, if I could get editing work at a local TV channel or something like that, then that would have been fantastic and great as well, I just knew I wanted to edit, so.  My theory was, was just to kind of shoot for the moon at the beginning.  So after university, I just sent out just hundreds of CVs and was making emails and calls, and I would love to have a collection of…like rejection letters and emails but ultimately, you know, most people just didn’t respond.  (Chuckles)  I was just kind of firing away.  So I kept on that for a few months, and then I had to go back to my job at John Lewis at the time.  And there was this particular window, it was just after I got married when…so I finished university, got married.  And then when I got back from the honeymoon, I knew realistically I had to start looking for a real job, so.  But one day I remember waking up and putting on the news, and they were interviewing the producer of Stormbreaker, and he was talking about how this film had like…they were trying to kind of make a James Bond style kids movie but with a small budget, and how they were British independent.  And really the interview was all about how he was just pushing the budget as far as he could, and it clicked to me, then that could be the perfect type of film to get onto.  As I have no resume, I’ve got no references, I’d realised that I had to do…get some work experience if I was gonna wanted to be taken seriously.  So I remember going on to IMDb, finding the name of the first assistant editor that was working on that project who’s great guy called Mark Sanger.  I phoned up the Pinewood switchboard because I knew that’s where the film was being shot.  I asked to be put through to the Stormbreaker production offices, which they did.  And then as soon as I got on the phone with someone, I very confidently asked to be put through to Mark Sanger like I knew who he was.  “It’s Adam Gough calling to Mark Sanger,” and they put me through.  And this was I think the first time I’d actually even got on the phone with someone, and I just pitched it.  I just explained my situation, just finished in university, I would love to do some work experience there, I have a interest in editorial and he said, “Sure,” and was kind enough to work it out with production.  It was the perfect scale like I say, they were very busy, they didn’t have enough money to hire a runner.  So for some, you know, upstart coming out of university wanting to help out for a couple of weeks, that they were…they’re very keen on, and that’s how I got my foot in the door so to say.  So it was meant to be a week and that turned into two weeks.  And then when that finished, I went back and it’s like, well, I don’t really know what to do next, I kind of started my job at John Lewis again with the hope of now I’ve got something on my CV, I can send it out, and maybe get some more contacts.  And then out of the blue, I had a phone call from this lady called Jane Winkles saying, “Can you come in for an interview?  I’m just crewing up a film called Children of Men.”  And I didn’t know what that project was at the time, and I eventually found out that when I finished my two weeks in Stormbreaker, there was a film moving in in the cutting rooms upstairs putting together a crew very quickly.  And the first assistant editor on that, they were needing a PA and she knew Mark, so she went downstairs and asked for any recommendations.  And he said, “Yeah, we just had this kid in for a couple of weeks, he was great, give him a call.”  And that turned into my first real job in the industry.  So as soon as I managed to sneak through the door, I kind of was lucky enough to hit the ground running.

Neil Hancock: 00:16:28
Well, it’s true what they say then, isn’t it?  It’s all about persistence and just keeping those relationships going and open.  And that’s fantastic.  So you talk about Children of Men, and I spoke to you earlier about what you brought from university into your jobs in the future.  But then you went on with Children of Men, Fred Claus, and Sweeney Todd to become an editorial trainee.  What would you say was the one lesson that you learned as a trainee that you’ve taken with you on all your other future projects?

Adam Gough: 00:17:01
That’s a good question.  I’m learning, so every project I’ve ever done I’ve learnt something on and taken with it, and I don’t necessarily remember what they are, that it’s kind of osmosis, I’ve just kind of being absorbing it all.  I think what was good with Children of Men, it was a very busy film, so it was kind of quite hectic hours, it was quite demanding.  And with that being my first film in the industry, it kind of gave me this false understanding of what it was, so kind of starting on something very difficult, and then that became my benchmark.  It actually made me more accessible to those situations in the future, if that makes sense.  (Chuckles)  It sounds like I’m speaking cryptically.  But, yes, it was a hard film and it kind of…it gave me a good tolerance right at the beginning.

Neil Hancock: 00:17:51
It makes perfect sense, you know, because people often say you start at the deep end and anything else after that is easy in effect.  So, that makes perfect sense.  But then from that, you then became a second assistant editor on In Bruges, another fantastic film, and an assistant editor on X-Men: First Class, and Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows Part 1 and 2.  When did you decide that the time was right to go from assistant roles to step up to a full-blown editor role?

Adam Gough: 00:18:30
Yeah.  So that’s…  (Chuckles)  That’s a good question because I didn’t think the time was right.  So, I always had this plan.  So again, it comes in very naïve, I didn’t have contacts in the industry, so I did not understand the progression.  Part of, you know, most of my knowledge came from watching, making of sort of DVDs and Blu-rays when those come out.  So, I remember when Lord of the Rings came out, it had these fantastic set of special features showing you behind the scenes in different departments.  So, when I got into the industry I was very, very much aware that there was a level of progression you needed to do.  When you come in as an assistant, that is a role, I have to make teas and coffees go and like get meals, I wasn’t going to be editing.  And which is an interesting thing to say, and that makes a lot of sense to some people.  But there are people that believe when you kind of get into…get your foot in the door and get into the industry that there’s a lot of it kind of served up on a plate, they don’t understand that, you know, you have to kind of work your way up the ladder so to say.  So, not really understanding how it worked, I kind of had this theory in my mind.  So I understood the different roles, there was an apprentice editor, there was a second assistant, there was a first assistant.  And my theory was, I could do…if I did each role three times in progressing budgets and experiences, I could do, as a PA, do a low budget and medium budget then a high budget.  And then that could be a launching pad to jump up to the next rung of the ladder as a second assistant, do like a low budget, followed by a medium budget, by a high budget.  And then from doing a high budget as a second assistant, I can then dive down to a low budget as a first assistant editor and work up.  And there was also this…after first assistant, I could then become an associate editor or an additional editor, and it could be like the same run, the same scale, that’s how I had it setup in my mind.  Now, you know, I have been incredibly fortunate with the jobs and everything which it came.  If you see my CV is that you’d recognise most of the movies on it and that’s actually a very kind of, you know, I’ve had a very privileged set of jobs.  And when I kind of went from…so I did a second assistant editor on a Harry Potter movie, and then working from my theory, I was wanting to go up to as first assistant editor on a low budget movie.  And my job following that was XMEN: First Class, and that job kind of came out of nowhere.  I actually got in contact with the editor, just thinking that I was putting myself forward just as a standard assistant editor, and he offered me the first gig on it.  And I didn’t think I was ready but I would never have taken a job if I didn’t think I could do it, and that worked out very, very well.  And then after that film is kind of I then got my break as an editor.  And again, I thought I was going to do some roles in associate editor or as an additional editor, and that actually came about by starting something as an assistant.  So it was… So after XMEN: First Class, it was quite a busy film, I was…I felt kind of exhausted after it, and wanted a little bit of timeout.  And I got in contact with editor called Chris Lebenzon that was working in the UK at the time.  And I knew he was cutting for Tim Burton, he was doing Dark Shadows and was also making Frankenweenie and I heard, kind of on the grapevine that they needed an assistant editor on Frankenweenie and I thought, “That could be a nice kind of job to have just after this one.”  So I kind of reached out, just a friendly email saying, “How are you doing?  It’d be lovely to meet up.”  And he knew that I was getting in contact and must have heard about Frankenweenie, and he just emailed me back saying, “Oh, I’m at Pinewood at the moment, come and visit me.  I’ve got something you may be interested in and it’s not Frankenweenie.” And I was like, “Oh, okay,” that kind of prick my ears up, I was intrigued to hear what that might be.  So I went down and visit him and said…and he told me that he was…Johnny Depp had asked him to cut this documentary he'd been doing on Keith Richards.  And he was really busy with Dark Shadows at the moment and if I could just start organising the project for him.  And I was like, “Oh, that sounds perfect.  This is exactly the type of, you know, job I’m looking for right now.”  So, you know, the schedule isn’t too crazy, it’s…the hours are going to be, you know, more polite, more social.  So I started doing that, and as soon as I finished organising it for him, he asked me to start assembling it for him.  And I was like, “Oh fantastic, this is…this was the exact job that I was looking for.”  This was the progression that I was hoping to get, kind of get an assembly editor credit.  And I started assembling it.  And about a week in, Johnny got in contact and said, “I want to see what’s been cut.”  I was like, “All right.”  I wasn’t prepared for it, I wasn’t expecting to show any cuts.  So I told Chris and he was like, “Absolutely.  If he wants to come in and watch some, let him see it.”  And he came in and watched the first 20 minutes and just looked at me and went, “That’s my movie!”  You know, his language, it was…I’m not sure if I can swear on this podcast or not, but it was stronger than that, he was very excited by what he saw.  And Chris just looked at me and nodded, and that was the moment I became an editor.  You know, that’s the moment when my pay check went from assisting to editing.  And Chris was very, very happy because he was just very busy with Dark Shadows, he never really had the time to do it, so by me kind of taking that on from him helped him as well, and that was kind of how I got the break.  So, it did not match my game plan at all.  I was not expecting to kind of be editing that early.  I’m very glad it happened as it did, because it took the stress out of it, if that makes sense.  Because I wasn’t like expecting people to see cuts, it was just an assembly edit, I was expecting Chris to come in and do the work.  When I was asked that Johnny wanted to see some, that kind of came as a surprise.  So I think if I’d started that job, and was told that I’d be cutting for couple of weeks and then Johnny was going to come and watch them, I would have over thought it and maybe would have made mistakes, and then that cut wouldn’t have been quite as fluid and as successful as it was.  So it was, yeah, again, just a gift, it kind of came out of the blue, and then I’ve been running with it ever since.

Neil Hancock: 00:24:55
And how long did it take you to get that, in that cut sort of ready, in the state it was in?  How long did that take in terms of the timescale?

Adam Gough: 00:25:04
Well, it was the first 20 minutes so I’d probably only been doing it for maybe a week and a half at that point.  And I was just having fun with it, it was, you know, I’d already organised the footage.  So when that was organised, it didn’t take too long to start cutting it.  Most of your time as an editor is getting things ready to cut, and then once it’s all organised, the process of cutting is a lot easier and quicker.  And I was just having fun.  It was, you know, it’s Keith Richards, it’s the Rolling Stones, it’s a rock doc, so I was being kind of punk rock, I was kind of…it was rough around the edges, when the music came in it was loud.  And when I say rough around the edges, what I mean is I’m using archive which could look a little grubby like it’s an old film, and I’ve let the film run out and have that very kind of cinematic kind of element to it, of kind of keeping in all the imperfections.  And that was just something that Johnny really, really, was drawn to and really, really liked.  He really liked the style that I had approached it with.  I was doing these big crescendo cuts where it would just…out of nowhere the music were just coming loud and going to an archive sequence, and he just responded to that.  So, yeah.  And I was relaxed while doing it and having fun.  So I don’t know.  I think if I was…if I knew that that opportunity was coming up to screen and I would have over thought it and probably be more contemporary in my approach and it might have not been so successful.

Neil Hancock: 00:26:29
Well, what an amazing story.  And how you became sort of a full-blown editor, that’s an amazing story.  And from that, we then go into the realm of visual effects which has changed editing greatly, I would have expected it’s added more technical aspect to it.  You were visual effects editor on Pan which I’ve also just seen, Swallows and Amazons as well.  How has visual effects changed the way you’d work on a film in post-production?

Adam Gough: 00:27:00
So, that came about because of…to some very, very good advice.  So I was on the Keith Richards documentary for about two and a half years, maybe almost three years, because the documentaries can kind of just take a lot of time for that, and it got to a stage as well where we had to commit to post-production, and for reasons I can’t really go into, it got…it got shelved for the time being which is still is at the moment.  And it was around the same time when Alfonso Cuarón got back in contact with me.  So I had…  He was the director of Children of Men who, you know, I got on very well with him on Children of Men and not spoken to him since.  And the reason he got back in contact with me was, he was looking for an editor because he’s doing some little short film projects and he was just, you know, just back in the game looking for an editor, and had a list of names, seeing who is available, and because I was now cutting on this documentary, my name made the list.  And when he was going over the list with his producer, Gabi Rodriguez, they recognised my name, and I had…because I had experience with him so they thought, “Well, you know, we know Adam, he’s worked with us before.  Let’s give him the opportunity.”  So, yeah, that was cool...so where I ended up doing a commercial, a commercial with him and a short with him.  And during that time, we were talking about my résumé, and it was a really lovely moment because those shorts were kind of like a job interview.  So, you could see that we were working together and it was going well, and he told me, he’s like, “I’d like you to do my next feature.”  I was like, “That’s great.”  And he goes, “But what you need, what you don’t have is the VFX editing credit.”  I’m just like, “Well, I’ve done the job as a first assistant.  So I know how to com, I have to do that as an editor on the documentary stuff.”  And he just told me outright, he’s like if I’m going to do a, you know, go to a studio, and it’d be a big effects, heavy movie, if you have that credit, it will make it a lot easier for me to bring you on as my editor.  So I was like, “Right, absolutely,” that means 100% I need to get myself a VFX editing credit, I don’t want to miss out on that opportunity.  And coincidentally, so it’s…  My whole story is just being kind of very lucky opportunities and coincidences, so.  And then coincidentally, the following week I had a phone call from the post supervisor on X-Men that was an American saying that there was an editor coming across to the UK and he needed a VFX editor to help him out on Pan,  did I know anyone that’s available?  And I was, “Yes, me,” and just put my hat in the ring for that job, so.  And that’s how I stepped across to doing VFX editing for that, and it was a great experience as well because it was like I was saying earlier, it’s something that I thought I knew but I didn’t realise the complexities of it all.  So I knew, kind of how to manage the databases and all of that, but my experience with comping was definitely not on the level that it was needed to.  And I think I kind of bluffed the interview and sold myself a little bit too much to get onto that job, and then just had to learn quick, so.  And the editor I was working for, Bill Hoy, who's  fantastic, he’s been another kind of mentor in to me during my career.  He did stuff like 300 and the early Zack Snyder things, so he really knows how to manipulate a shot and use kind of visual effects to their fullest.  So he did the Planet of Ape movies as well, and…so that was eye-opening to me, kind of seeing kind of the additional tools.  And, you know, working just as an assistant in all the films I had, I thought I had a very, very big kind of strong understanding of visual effects and how they can be used to manipulate performances in an editing capacity.  And honestly I think until that moment of being a VFX editor, my knowledge of it was probably on the lighter side, not understanding how far stuff can be manipulated and used to your advantage.  So that was just another fantastic learning experience, and also I’ve kind of got the credit for in case I needed it for the Alfonso job.  And I just kept running with it.

Neil Hancock: 00:31:21
And it certainly paid dividends when you entered the realms of editing Roma.  And indeed but before Roma, you edited another film directed by a mutual friend of ours called Bees Make Honey which was another good film.  And then also, when we’re talking about Roma, one of the thing I love about Roma, is that it’s like…it’s not like watching a film, it’s like watching a slice of life.  Like the cameras just been placed there and we’re watching at these events unfold and, how these characters respond to those events.  But I almost felt like I knew the amount of work that was being done, but it was done so well that I almost didn’t see the work.  What processes were used to make it seem that seamless?

Adam Gough: 00:32:14
Yeah, there’s a lot of splits and when I say split shot it might mean you’ve kind of edit two takes together in this like an invisible cut.  So if a tree passes by, you kind of use that as a way of blending in to the others and then you use VFX to morph it together.  There are moments where you can re-speed the character within a frame.  So, if someone at the end of a shot for instance, walks out of frame but you want them to stay there, you re-speed just like character down to 10%, so they stand in place longer while everyone else walks away.  Then lots of little kind of manipulative—manipulative isn’t the right word to use because it kind of, I mean, there’s a kind of a negative, you know, view on the word but kind of lots of little tricks that you can use like that.  And going back to the Bees Make Honey that you mentioned earlier, which was… So before Roma came up, I knew that, you know, I had something kind of to do with Alfonso, and it was just kind of finished doing the VFX editing works so I didn’t know how long I had, that I this call out of the blue for a recommendation for an editor and I was sent the script for Bees Make Honey and went and met Jack.  And I remember reading it kind of on the way to the interview and really liking the script.  I could see in it, we kind of shared a lot of kind of…our music taste were the same, and this is going back from rather than kind of it being the script, looking into that relationship with director, I want to work with people with the same sensibilities.  And I remember going into the interview and just kind of really wanting it, but trying to play it cool, and Jack told me later on that apparently my opening line was, “Yeah, I’m available at the moment, I’m just waiting to do Alfonso Cuarón’s next feature,” which is a hell of a sell.  (Chuckles)  And it sounds like a very, very cocky thing for me to go in and say which I don’t remember, but I was really glad how that came about and…

Neil Hancock: 00:34:13
Fantastic!

Adam Gough: 00:34:14
And we absolutely kind of like, yeah, go in for the sell on that.  And Jack was very, very open for, yeah, us experimenting with the shots as well.  And because I’ve just become off the VFX editing work, we were creating and doing a lot of those techniques in Bees Make Honey.  We would paint out blinks if the character was blinking or we would do a performance re-speed where if there’s…we felt that the lines or dialogue was a little slow between characters, you put a little invisible speed ramp in there to speed it up, to kind of draw their deliveries a little bit closer to each other.  We did splits and we were kind of using all of the techniques in there, you know, in a very visual style, not like the invisible stuff that kind of take advantage of.  I think ultimately later on that’s kind of paid off more for my work with Spike Lee which is you know, a more kind of visual punctuated style.  But what’s kind of very interesting with using VFX to your advantage is they can…you can do them in a way which is invisible or you can do them in a way which is very, very visible, where you’re doing them there, you know, to have fun with and to kind of jump around.  So even though they kind of feel like different shots, there’s a bit like the exact same techniques are being used, like you can use a speed ramp to make it look like everyone’s running around faster, but at the same time you can just use a little speed ramp alternating the speed just to get the timing a little bit more close, like maybe the actor just took a…that the beat was a little bit too long so you just kind of speed ramp them up a little bit.  And on Roma, I think there is only about 21 shots which are not visual effects shots in that movie.  There is a lot of…I don’t want to say manipulation but there’s a lot of kind of VFX fixes of just kind of painting up walls and reflections, not so much as performance based.  When I say a performance based shot which is when you kind of like change an actor out or remove blinks and stuff like that, but there’s definitely a lot of split shots, invisible split shots where it looks like one long take, and it wasn’t shot that way, it wasn’t shot.  Because sometimes like with 1917 and The Revenant, they shoot in a way where this is part A, part B, part C, and they build it as they go.  Like there is a trick of there just being a long shot which is 2 minutes long where you’re like the beginning of A, and the end of B, it wasn’t shot in a way to be edited together but you find a way of a trick, of being able to kind of edit it together and hide the edit.  I thought that’s something that I kind of really enjoy trying to do.  It doesn’t always work, you can’t always do it if it wasn’t designed to be cut together but it’s always worth a try.

Neil Hancock: 00:37:07
You’ve worked with loads of directors like Alfonso Cuarón as you’ve mentioned, and Spike Lee and Jack.  When you work with these directors, how much of an active part do they take in the editing process?  Do they say to you, “Adam, I’ve told you what I want, I’m going to go away and come back later,” or do they actually sit with you all the way through the process?

Adam Gough: 00:37:31
Every director has their different kind of process and style when it comes to editing.  Like Alfonso is a co-editor, so he’s in every day.  Like Jack, he loves the process so he would come in every day but he would give me some time in the mornings if I just need to catch up.  Spike is a director, would prefer to kind of sit down and watch things in runs and leave you with notes to work on them.  But ultimately I’m just looking for a collaboration where I’m hired by director to help them create their vision.  And I think this is something that that out of school when people want to become editors they think, “Oh, it’s great, you’re given a film, you edit it together the way you want to make it, and you’re done.”  It’s like, no.  So I’m here to help a director create their vision and make what they want to, you know, what they want to make.  I want to be a collaborator, I want to experiment and give them my ideas and talk about what I think it should do, and if it’s a strong collaboration then, they will hopefully be listening to me.  But, you know, that’s why I say for me the most important thing in any project I do is, is the director because it’s like that collaboration which is important.  But every director has their own process with the amount of time that they come in to the cutting room and sit with me.  I feel that, at the end of the day, the focus is still I’m still doing exactly the same job because we’re focusing in on certain performances or moments, and the process is a side, it just depends if someone’s behind me or gives me more time to do it on my own.  But as long as I’m given an opportunity to experiment, I think that’s kind of always…I think that helps like with any movie.  And there’s never one film.  I’ve never worked in a film where, as it’s been on script, and how it’s being envisioned, there’s never…they’d never come together like that.  There’s always been a scene, scenes which will evolve or have changed in a way because it’s a whole…it’s a whole re-write, it’s a whole new draft of the script.  And when actors get their hands on the material, it brings a new level of it, and then that alters it in a certain way where a certain performances might be stronger than others which you focus on.  So, you always need time to kind of play around and see what you can do.

Neil Hancock: 00:39:41
So from that, we’ve looked at your career from how you started out, to up to date really, to present day.  I’m just wondering there, what has been your greatest challenge be it in life or in your career to date?

Adam Gough: 00:39:57
I have been blessed with my career.  So I must say that I don’t feel like I’ve had like particular, you know, with what’s been going on in 2020 as well and the world around me.  I never feel like I’ve really kind of had substantial challenges.  I would say the very beginning of my career, just like getting my foot in the door, just having no knowledge of the industry, having no contacts, that was…  That was probably the hardest bit.  But at the same time because I, you know, it was a dream job, if I didn’t make it then, you know, I was not ever kind of expecting to make it, if that makes sense.  It was just like if it all came together then that would have just been amazing and fantastic.  I would have been a little heartbroken but then again I would just seeing it as the real world, and this job was kind of out of reach.  But that was the hardest.  And also I kind of kept quiet about it because, you know, when you’re out of university, I had no right to be applying for kind of, or as I saw it, jobs in the film industry, if people weren’t responding to my emails, I wasn’t getting heartbroken about it, and I would have send out hundreds, maybe even like a thousand emails or letters and just, you know, like I say, not even getting rejections to it.  So it was a little disheartening but it wasn’t like it was the end of the world to me.  And then creatively, just with what I’ve been doing, working in film, Roma was probably the biggest challenge.  It’s because it was a film in a foreign language.  But prior to that I’d actually had done a documentary called Hands of God which is still to be released.  I think it’s coming out this year.  Which a documentary about the Iraqi national boxing team qualifying for the Rio Olympics and that was all in Arabic.  So it was all kind of working off translation but working with a film in another language is another level of detail altogether.  And I’m dyslexic as well so typing in subtitles and things like that, that’s just…my days just felt longer because I just had to re-read everything two or three times to make sure I had it right.  Avid doesn’t have any like also correct tools within it, when you type subtitles in, it’s just it is what it is.  So I’d always have to have some type of Word processor open at my computer at the same time just to make sure I was not putting in any stupid spelling mistakes, you know, with a director sitting behind me, and jumping between things, just keep an eye on my grammar.  So that was a challenge just because of having to kind of re-read everything I was doing was a little bit exhausting and frustrating as well, that it could have been easier to me but, like I say, I’ve kind of been super fortunate with how it is.  Now, I feel that the greatest challenge that I’m having is just kind of working from home.  So, I’m married and my wife is…she works in the film industry, she’s a sound editor, and she’s on a job at the moment at Twickenham and our home in Greenford.  And I’m having that, you know…and again, I feel odd talking about having an abundance of wealth in my career with working on a project with Spike Lee, that I’m in Brooklyn and just being away from home for a long periods of time.  It’s not something that I ever thought about getting into this industry, and it’s not…   And I’m hoping at some point that my life work balance settles because it’s… I wouldn’t be able to kind of continue at this rate or being away from home forever.  But as I’m having such kind of amazing opportunities and still establishing myself as an editor then I see them as opportunities, and it feels wrong kind of like not to follow them.  And, yeah, I don’t like talking about challenges and stuff like this because, you know, I’m a white man, so I have…I’ve been given it on a plate almost.  And I can see, you know, with Brooklyn and seeing what’s been going on this year with the Black Lives Matter moment, that I can see real challenges out my window here.  So, yeah, like that’s kind of my thoughts and vibes of all of that.

Neil Hancock: 00:44:06
But out of your whole career, what would you say…what sacrifices would you say you have made in order to get the successes that you have?  You probably don’t see them as sacrifices because you do a job you love, but what would you say you have had to sacrifice?

Adam Gough: 00:44:22
Probably my social life is being sacrificed a little bit.  I have an incredible… I haven’t necessarily lost anything or had to sacrifice things like that, I’ve not…oh, yeah, I miss my wife’s birthdays and anniversaries when we’re away.  So I am incredibly fortunate to have an understanding wife and supportive wife that knows what we kind of, you know, how we’re both building a career and going forward.  I need to kind of work out a work life balance, so my relationship doesn’t turn into a sacrifice in the future because we need to spend more time together.  (Chuckles)  So, yeah, it’s difficult.  It’s like you say it, it’s like you don’t really realise until you step away from it.  I’m right in the middle of it all at the moment and just trying to be aware of what’s going on.  I don’t want us…you know, at the end of the day, it’s a job.  You know, it’s a dream job, it’s an amazing job.  I’m cutting films but I’m not a frontline worker in a hospital or anything like that.  So, yeah, I still need a life to go home to at the end of the day and not kind of put too much of the sacrificing into what I’m doing.

Neil Hancock: 00:45:30
My final question to you Adam is, we all want to develop and improve and challenge ourselves in the future, what project would you want to do that would do just that next?

Adam Gough: 00:45:42
After Da 5 Bloods, I wanted to do another documentary because I hadn’t… I’ve done some smaller stuff earlier, I want to do something a little bit more established which I’m fortunate enough to be doing at the moment.  I can’t, it’s unannounced.  So I can’t kind of talk too much about it.  So, yeah, who knows next?  I did a concert movie this year with David Byrne’s American Utopia, I was very proud of that.  I just want to continue working with the directors that I am working with, and just excited to see kind of what else comes up.  All of my goals that I’ve set myself, I’ve kind of…I kind of exceed them and keep making new ones.  So after university, I just wanted to work in the film industry.  And then I got a job in the film industry, and this is like, all right, this is my dream, now I want to edit.  And then I’m editing and it’s like, now what do I want to do now?  (Chuckles)  I keep kind of exceeding expectations.  So I don’t really want to set any other goals because, you know, I’ve been so fortunate enough to get here already.  And also something that I find quite interesting with every time I do something different, I’m getting very exhausted of just being told how I don’t understand how it works and what this is.  So, for instance, when I did the concert movie, I remember the production company behind it, they were saying how, you know, you’ve done features before, you don’t understand multi-camera projects and how this is going to do, and there’s all this kind of talking down.  I can’t remember quite what the word is for it, this kind of…this kind of arrogance of you don’t know how this works, just like editing is editing.  And if Spike wants me on the project and, or the director want me on a project and has a trust in me, then it will be fine.  I’m doing a large-scale commercial with Spike at the moment, and just being through this whole project again where I’ve just been on phone calls and just…the producers on it are just being patronising, saying, “You don’t understand how commercials work and how this is going to be.”  And it’s just like, “Well, I’ve cut a film in a foreign language I don’t even speak.  I think that, you know, it’s not going to be quite as hard as that.”  So, yeah, so we will see.  I would love to get to a place in my career where the patronising stops and I’m not told that I’m not doing what I, you know, I know what I’m doing anymore, because I feel like I’ve passed that.  But, yeah, like I say, everything right now is a bonus and it’s a blessing.  And I think I would love to work in the UK more.  I’m a UK based editor, I’m very fortunate to be working in Brooklyn at the moment but it would be nice to get back home.

Neil Hancock: 00:48:24
And I know I said that was the final question but another question has occurred to me and I just wanted to ask.  What advice would you give to aspiring editors who want to start out but unsure of what route basically go down?  What advice would you give to them?

Adam Gough: 00:48:44
The advice I would give is with everyone I speak to in, who works in editing, everyone seems to have a different route.  And, you know, that there’s no one way of doing it, so don’t get disheartened.  If you have a love for it and a passion for it which is important, just keep working away, and hopefully the opportunity will arise and present itself at some point.  So, you know, that I sent out hundreds, maybe in thousands of emails and CVs and, you know, letters just to get my first foot in the door, you know, just speak to people.  Actually, people in the editing community are very approachable.  And now with social media, and Twitter and stuff like that, I think it’s even easier to now reach out and start kind of building contacts because ultimately I think it’s a contact based industry.  You need to kind of know people to know what’s going on and start building a reputation.  So, just keep trying, just keep…an opportunity will arise and it will arrive when you’re least expecting it because, that’s kind of how it always works and just kind of hang in there.  If you’ve got a passion and a love for it, just keep going.

Neil Hancock: 00:49:54
And on that note, thank you so much Adam for talking to me.  It’s been lovely chatting to you.

Adam Gough: 00:49:59
No, thank you.  Yeah, thanks for inviting me.  Thank you Neil.

 Neil Hancock: 00:50:01
(Music) Thank you very much.  If you enjoyed listening to this podcast, please follow me on Twitter @NeilOnWheelsPod, or Instagram: The Neil on Wheels Podcast.  Until next time.