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Neil Hancock:    00:00:11
Hello, everyone.  I’m Neil on Wheels, and this is my new podcast.  I can’t walk the walk, but I can talk the talk.  I’m a wheelchair actor who wasn’t able to work during the pandemic.  Rather than sitting around doing nothing, I thought I’d sit around doing something.  In this series, I’ll be chatting to people in the theatre, TV and film industry about the challenges they’ve overcome in order to achieve great things in life.  He has played such roles as Prince Andrei in the BBC series, War & Peace, Reverend Sidney Chambers in ITV’s Grantchester, and Alex Goodman in the BBC One thriller McMafia.  He has also been nominated for a BAFTA for his role as Tommy Lee Royce in the BBC drama Happy Valley.  And recently, he’s played John Brook in Greta Gerwig’s adaptation of Little Women, starring Meryl Streep and Saoirse Ronan.  As well as his work on screen, he has also had numerous stage roles that include Peter in Bug at Found111, and Zack in Belleville at the Donmar Warehouse.  And he’s soon to be seen in the horror thriller, Things Heard & Seen on Netflix.  My guest for this episode is none other than James Norton.  Hello, James.
 
James Norton:    00:01:25
Oh, hi, Neil.  What an intro.  I love that.  I should write that down and frame it.  How’re you doing?

Neil Hancock:    00:01:30
Fine, thank you.  How are you?  How are you today?  Are you all right?

James Norton:    00:01:33
I’m all right.  I’m very happy to be speaking to you, it’s a treat.  So, yeah, no, I’m feeling good.  My day has just got a lot better.

Neil Hancock:    00:01:41
Now, I talked about in my introduction about Things Heard & Seen.  What a great title for a film.  But tell us what it is all about?

James Norton:    00:01:52 
So, it’s funny, I just watched it for the first-time last night which is coincidental.  It’s based on a book, loosely based on a book, and it’s about a group of… it’s about a young couple who move up Upstate New York, to Kingston, and they're moving to an old house, it’s set in the ‘80s.  And it sort of explores the Hudson River School group of artists, George Inness and the like, and I play a young art professor who moves up with his wife and child to an old house in Upstate New York.  And over the course of the movie realise that—or they realise, the two protagonists, that their house has other...I was going to say few people,  other things living in it.  And, well, it turns them from being a kind of hopeful story of a young couple starting a new chapter in their life in something much darker and sinister, more sinister.  But, yeah, it was fun.  I had played the opposite of the amazing Amanda Siegfried, who I love, and the directors, Shari Springer Berman and Robert Pulcini were a joy to work with, they did a film called American Splendor which was nominated for an Oscar back in the day and they were just great.  So, we had a lot of fun filming it.  Do you know what, it’s funny—like when you do a film and you have to do press for it, you get asked, you know, little soundbites, “So what was the film about?” and I haven’t done any press for this film.  So, you can tell that this is the first time I’ve had to answer that question.  And I’m sort of slowly sort of wading my way through honey trying to remember, because we shot it so long ago so I’m trying to remember what it’s about and get my spiel in order.  But that was a good first attempt.

Neil Hancock:    00:03:30
A very good first attempt, James, if I may say so, and it gives us a very good idea about what the film is going to be about.  I certainly will see it when it’s on Netflix.  Now, James, can tell us what it was like shooting the film?

 James Norton:    00:03:47
That film was… it was all shot Upstate New York and it was…  I mean, it was a Netflix so we had a bit of money behind the movie, which was great.  And we had some fantastic producers, Anthony Bregman is an amazing producer, he does sort of Tamara Jenkins, and he’s got a credible body of work, a real tastemaker.  So he was a great person to work with and his team.  And it was kind of a pleasure because we were up in the part of the world sort of in Upstate New York, near Vermont, and all those places, I mean I drove through Vermont to get to Montreal one weekend, and it was around the time of leaf peeping, have you ever heard of that?

Neil Hancock:    00:04:25
No.

James Norton:    00:04:26
Have you not? When the leaves turn from the summer to fall, as they call it, there is this incredible array of colour and the whole—because there’s so, you know, so much space and so much forest in that part of the world, and I don’t know whether it’s something particular about the air or the soil but there are people coming from all over the world just to look at the leaves turn colour in that part of the world, and we were there for the leaf peeping part of the year.  So, I’m bit of a country boy, and I love to peep at leaves in best times, so I was able to go out in my car on days off go walking and hiking, and it was pretty spectacular.  So, yeah, it was really fun to shoot.  If I’m totally honest, the film is… there’s a sort of two parts to it.  One is the sort of psychological thriller which explores the relationship between Amanda’s character and myself, and the kind of disintegration of their marriage, and then the other part of the movie is a more kind of genre of horror-based sort of tone, and that’s a bit more kind of, you know, jumps and spooks and sinister stuff.  And only just because it’s what I love getting my teeth into it, and it’s also what I love watching, I’m generally more interested in the kind of the character driven stuff but I love the genre when it’s a sort of trojan horse and like this hopefully sits alongside the character.  But, for me, what was most exciting was to really get my teeth into the relationship and that dynamic with Amanda.  So, yeah, it was a good fun to shoot.  We had a good time.

Neil Hancock:    00:06:08
Well, I love the thriller element but not so much the horror, I have to say.  I always get a little bit…  I’m not necessarily a horror fan by nature, although I have watched horror films, but I much prefer thriller, and I understand how the line between thriller and horror can be very narrow to a degree, can't it, I suppose.

James Norton:    00:06:33
Yeah.  I mean, when horror’s done well, it accentuate—it really kind of brings out that… you know, it allows character to really thrive, and it puts…  When people, and people are human beings who we all identify with, are placed in these extraordinary circumstances and they’re thwarted by whatever it might be, haunted or, you know, hunted or… then it can really accentuate horror.  Or it can be used in a kind of trojan horse way and really skewer a kind of societal or cultural, political conversation, like Get Out, for example, when it’s done well.  When it’s done badly, it can actually be a real distraction, and actually, all you want to do is be in the heads of these characters in their lives, and for me at least, I love character and that’s what I do this job for is that learning about human beings, and when the genre distracts me from that and takes away from that relationship with the characters then I find it frustrating.  But when done well, I’m all up for it.  But it is often not done well, so I guess it’s a hit and miss a little bit.  But, yeah, I think we’re on agreement, probably, when it come to that.

Neil Hancock:    00:07:39   
Now, you’ve had an extraordinary career to date.  Going back to the start, if you will, when did you decide you wanted to be an actor?

James Norton:    00:07:50
Well, I don’t know if it was a sort of a moment, a specific kind of road to Damascus kind of like epiphany, I sort of had this weird bug in me for a very long time as a really young, as a kid, I remember…  Even when I was like four and it was the school nativity, and I don’t know whether it was just because I was incredibly precocious and attention seeking or whether I really loved performance in acting, but whatever it was, I was the one… I always was putting myself forward to play Joseph or I think I would have happily played Mary and Jesus and all the wise men and everyone in the cast because I just loved it from a really early age, I absolutely loved it.  And then I did it all the way through school and every summer holiday, I would do youth theatres and I would do work experience at the local theatre.  So, yeah, it was there from a very early age.  So it wasn’t like I had this sudden moment where I thought “I want to be an actor.”  I think that the real change for me was when I applied to drama school, because up until that point, I had definitely lacked confidence in committing to the dream of being an actor.  I think it had always been a dream at the back of my mind as opposed to an ambition.  I think probably, like a lot of people, my school allowed me to entertain the dream and humour myself but perhaps not follow it through as a legitimate ambition. And when I then went to university and did lots of theatre, did the Edinburgh Festival, and I was lucky enough the university I was at there was so much theatre going on, and I met this incredible director who I became incredibly close to called Libby Penn, and she basically gave me the confidence to apply to drama school, and that was really the turning point because then suddenly I was committing three years to this dream, which always have been kind of a very, very passionate hobby, and there was no turning back.  And, as you know me, Neil, because that’s where we met, at the old RADA, and once you’ve sort of put the time in and been in that institution, you kind of come out the other side and you feel different, you feel like you’re a professional actor, you know, you put the time in, you’ve done the graft, and you have the confidence to walk into a room and say, you know, when someone asks you what do you do, you say, “Well actually, I’m an actor,” as opposed to maybe thinking about, maybe one day trying my hand at acting.  So, that was kind of the turning point which gave me the confidence to say this is it now, this is my life, and I have loved it and never look back.  What about you, Neil?  Can I ask you that?

Neil Hancock:    00:10:22
Oh, yeah, of course you can.  I went to a theatre company called Playbox Theatre Company, and I remember going there and instantly…  Because what Playbox do is they perform… you do workshops with them every Saturday and then you audition for certain shows, and if you get into those shows, which I did, you then perform to the paying public.  So, you’re acting to a very high standard, and for me, that gave me a tremendous amount of confidence.  I would never have even thought about auditioning for drama school had it not been for Playbox.  For me, that’s where it all began.  I mean, at school, I did a bit, but I think it was at Playbox really where I first started to think I could perhaps do this professionally.  Because at the time, you know, things like that weren’t necessarily—you didn’t think that acting will necessarily be a career for a wheelchair user necessarily.  But thanks to Playbox, that all changed.

James Norton:    00:11:31
I’m so pleased and grateful to Playbox that they were able to help you see that as a legitimate dream because, yeah, the acting industry would be far worse without you, Neil.  Was there a particular person who you remember was an inspiration to you in that journey?

Neil Hancock:    00:11:47
Well, Stewart McGill and Mary King who run Playbox, I think, do a fantastic job and, yeah, they really helped me.

James Norton:    00:11:58
Great.

Neil Hancock:    00:12:00
Yes.  But going back to you, James, in your teens I believe, you did work experience at the Stephen Joseph Theatre, and what did you learn from that experience?

James Norton:    00:12:13
I did do work experience at the Stephen Joseph Theatre.  That is good research because I don’t think that’s… that’s not… I haven’t talked about that much.  What did I learn from that experience, I have to say I remember that couple of weeks so clearly and I loved it.  I applied to do this work experience and got the gig, I think I had to write a letter or something to say how excited I was about the prospect.  And then they basically allowed me about three or four days in each of the departments.  So I spent a bit in the lighting, in the stage, backstage, front of house, I think I even did a bit of offices upstairs and costume, makeup, all that kind of stuff.  And so it gave me a real kind of cross section experience of all of the different facets to running a theatre.  And Stephen Joseph is a great theatre, still going, it obviously champions Alan Ayckbourn, but also many other playwrights.  It’s one of the kinds of big producing theatres up in the North Yorkshire where I grew up.  What did I learn from it, I think probably just…  I remember most clearly the people, because a lot of time was spent having tea breaks and coffee breaks in this amazing kind of central glass atrium that they have, and we would sit and there was this guy I remember who could roll a cigarette with one hand and it was always a kind of a party trick.  And that was this one thing I remember, but amongst others, they were just a really, really interesting group of people, and that was the actors, the director, Alan Ayckbourn, and all the people who ran the theatre and all the stage hands and front of house and behind stage.  And so I remember feeling very, very inspired and nourished by these people, and feeling like I wanted to be part of their community.  And I think I already knew that I loved acting at that point so that I didn’t need converting in that respect.  But I definitely remember leaving thinking that’s the world I want to be spending my life and that’s where I want to work in.  I also remember that I’d done a play that summer just beforehand for a youth theatre, and I borrowed my friend’s makeup concealer.  And there was im—have you ever heard of impetigo?  It’s a skin condition.  It’s like a…it’s a really infectious.

Neil Hancock:    00:14:31 
Yes.

James Norton:    00:14:32
Have you heard about it?  Yeah.  So it’s a horrible fungal thing which you get, and if you get it, it’s just horrible.  And I borrowed my friend’s concealer who had got impetigo, and I got impetigo, and I remember the whole first week of this work experience where I was desperately trying to look as cool as I could and as fitting in as I could, I’m probably sort of 15 at the time, but I had this horrible, horrible attack of impetigo and half my face was this horrible sort of scabby mess and it was impossible to cover up.  So I think the whole time, they will be incredibly friendly to me but they will also probably given me a very wide berth thinking that I was, you know, a little bit infected (chuckles) by the impetigo.  But, yeah, if you’ve ever had impetigo, it’s a nasty, nasty thing and not what you want to have on your first day in a professional job.

Neil Hancock:    00:15:20
And then, of course, you went to Fitzwilliam College Cambridge to study theology.  Now, were you a member of the famous Cambridge Footlights at all?

James Norton:    00:15:31
I did do a bit of Footlights.  I…  Was I member?  I mean, I guess I was a member.  I can’t really remember how the membership worked.  I performed for the Footlights.  I think we had a membership maybe and then we had a committee, and I think at one point I was invited on to the committee and I didn’t do it because I was worried that my life would be kind of dominated by comedy.  Not that that would have been a bad thing but at that point, I was really interested with drama, straight drama, as well as doing a bit of Footlights.  So, we had these things called Smokers which were a fortnightly kind of sketch show and everyone had the opportunity to do a bit of stand up and write a sketch and perform them, I did a few of those.  Generally, I never performed my own stuff, I was always too scared, I was always roped into to perform other people’s stuff.  And I did a thing called the Spring Review which was the kind of Easter Footlights play, which was actually written by Tom Kingsley, who now is – I think created or directed Ghosts, and Tom Sharpe who’s now called Will Sharpe who is responsible for a show Flowers with Olivia Colman and others, amazing amazing show, and then another guy called Tom Williams who I think is a writer and a teacher now.  So they were very amazingly talented guys, and they were my contemporaries of my year who ran Footlights, the three Toms, and, you know, a lot of the other actors in that kind of company have gone on to do great things.  So, I was very lucky to be part of that group.  And, yeah, it’s funny, I do love doing comedy, I haven’t done much, really I’ve done a little bit out in the professional world and I would love to do a little bit more, but it’s a nerve-wracking challenge but one I’d be up for a little bit more, I think.

Neil Hancock:    00:17:25
So, what production were you involved in, out of interest?

James Norton:    00:17:30
At Cambridge, I was involved in loads.  I mean, there was one every…  No, there were two or three…  I mean, there were a lot.  I took a couple…  I think I took three or four plays up to Edinburgh Festival, one was Some Explicit Polaroids by Mark Ravenhill which I did at the Underbelly.  We did another one called the Volpone: Sex Lies & Videotape, which was very kind of very studenty but really, really fun, which is a kind of adaptation, a modern adaptation of the Volpone.  I directed the production of The Crucible, which we did in the round church in Cambridge, and it was this old 11th Century church which I made all the seating myself and it was kind of amazing, very atmospheric piece.  I played Konstantin in The Seagull, I kind of did loads.  I mean, it was lovely because it was really friendly safe environment to have a go at everything, you know, have a go at directing, have a go at writing, performing, whatever it might be, and you know, you’re a kind of big fish in a small pond so, you know, it’s a little kind of microcosm and you’d get a sense of what it might be to put on a professional show even though it’s very, you know, amateurish, but it’s really great base to try stuff out and flex your muscles and explore and learn a lot.  I learnt a huge amount from some really amazing people, who a lot of whom I still know and sometimes work with.

Neil Hancock:    00:18:58     
Did you do any Shakespeare, out of interest?

James Norton:    00:19:01
I did.  I did Much Ado About Nothing.  I did…  Uh, what else did I do?  Most of them are more Shakespeare than that.  Did I just do Much Ado, maybe I just did Much Ado.  Oh, no, I did The Taming of the Shrew.  Did I?  Gosh, I can’t remember.  It’s awful.  It’s nearly two decades ago.  I mean, not yet, but it’s more than 15 years.  So, I’m… you have to forgive me but I’m getting forgetful, but I definitely did the production of Much Ado.  And I think I might have done another bit of Shakespeare but I can’t remember what it was.  I’ll let you know, Neil.  Oh, I can tell you this though.  The production of Much Ado I did was directed by Robert Icke, which is interesting because he’s also now gone on to be a

(overlapping conversation). Neil Hancock:    00:19:48
 Oh!

James Norton:    00:19:49
Yeah, yeah, so that was fun.  I was in his first production at Cambridge.  And I think I do remember him sort of coming up and immediately… having done all these student plays before and it will all have been a bit… it’s been a lot of fun but very studenty.  And then Rob who had, I think at that point, had already been running a theatre in Teesside at the age of like 16 or something ridiculous.  He came in and directed a Much Ado, a production of Much Ado, and immediately we were all just like, oh, this guy is the real deal, this guy, there’s no kind of zip zap boing with this guy, you know, we’re straight into the table and let’s dissect the script, let’s do this in a professional way.  Which I think we were all a bit like, “I kind of want to play zip zap boing for a couple of weeks.  Yeah, he was very, very professional from a very early age and he was an incredible director from the off.

Neil Hancock:    00:20:41
Now, moving on from that, I believe you went to teach and perform for school children in Northern India at one point, what was that like?

James Norton:    00:20:51
I did, I love that experience.  I went to Nepal and North India because I’d spent a bit of time there after school on my year away.  And I then set up a theatre company called Backpackers which toured schools in Nepal and North India, and we would turn up a for a day, the six of us, and we would do workshops throughout the day and music and movement and voice.  And then we’d ask all the kids to separate off into six groups, and we would direct them in little sort of little plays of 5, 10 minutes long, and then they would perform to their peers and the whole school, and then we would finish the day with a play of our own.  And honestly, it was the most rewarding experience I’ve ever had.  I absolutely loved it.  Because we would take our little troop into…  I had a contact, a friend who was running a charity out in Nepal, so he was able to introduce us to various schools.  And some of the schools were really remote, really quite a good distance into the countryside outside Kathmandu in the Kathmandu Valley, and, you know, a lot of these kids have never been to the theatre, never really seen any live theatre at all.  Some of them definitely wouldn’t have even had a TV and seen a TV, so you know, for them to suddenly be thrown into this kind of crazy experience with this overly enthusiastic kind of Blue Peter presenter type people like us, they were very wary at the beginning, understandably, they looked at us and thought who on earth are these big freaks.  And then by the end, what usually happened was by the end of the day we’d won their trust, hopefully, and it was just remarkable the way they gave us their trust.  And they would put these plays on which were incredibly moving, sometimes, you know, really kind of touching on subjects which they weren’t otherwise maybe able to talk about, you know, parents who had treated them badly or a relatives who are ill or issues with sanitation or poverty, other things, you know, things which they had obviously felt worried and anxious and afflicted by and they were able to use theatre as a way of exploring it as an outlet, and it was extraordinary to watch and see the power of theatre.  I mean, yeah, I loved it, I wish I could do it again, but you know, culturally, there aren’t enough days in the week or whatever the phrase is.

Neil Hancock:    00:23:10
I suppose, from your perspective, it’s completely different to the sort of thing you’re doing now because you’re an actor doing things on the stage and on the screen, but in a way, doing TiE effectively, you know, is another thing altogether, and it’s often… I suppose it was good for you to experience that before you did your other bits and pieces that you’re doing now, because it’s giving you another aspect of theatre life.

James Norton:    00:23:41 
Totally.  I mean, you know, what it’s like, you know, the work you do in Stratford, and I’m sure a lot of… I’m sure a lot of the people who you work with are kids coming and learning about Shakespeare and… Am I right?  I’m sure you perform in front of quite a lot of younger people, do you?

Neil Hancock:    00:23:58
We do.  It’s from sort of young people, probably about Key Stage 2 to A-level, I would say, it’s quite a wide range.

James Norton:    00:24:08
I mean, it’s… you know, and it’s like, you better than anyone, when you see those kids… and it’s not alway-…  I mean, often, a lot of them probably blow out their mind and they want to be doing something else, but every so often you’ll find one who is just enthralled by it and it’s triggered something very innate and authentic.  And when you see that, it’s so rewarding, and I love it.  It’s such a sort of simple pure pleasure to see some young person react to theatre film, whatever it is, in a really profound way, and you know that that will probably stay with them for the whole of their lives, and you might have been changed their life forever.  And, you know, they might even go and, maybe go and buy a book about Shakespeare in the gift shop and take that home, pour over it, and then maybe, you know, apply to drama school in 20 years’ time.  But it’s so much more profound than just doing a play and then heading off afterwards to the pub. I mean, look, I love doing theatre, of course I do, and they haven’t… and I get an enormous amount from it, but when you know that you’ve really affected a young person’s life, it’s really special, and I definitely felt that when I was out in Nepal.  I do a little bit of work with some a charity called The Outrunners which is run by a friend of mine, and I mentor kids who are sort of 14, 15, 16 kids in from sort of Hackney in parts of London, and we talk about film and theatre and I’ll answer sort of as many questions I can, help them with their monologues for a drama schools and things.  And again, you know, it’s so rewarding, I love it.  And it’s actors… you know, this better than anyone, that we need fuel to do our job, we need to be in touch with everyone as many walks of life as we possibly can in order to do our job the best we can.  So, I think, you know, everything is, actors, what we do is play, you know, we get dressed up for a living and like little kids go and make believe, and I think working with kids is a brilliant fuel for every actor in a way I think it should be sort of mandatory, we should all be encouraged to go and work with kids or TiE or whatever it might be just because it just helps you do your job better, I think.

Neil Hancock:     00:26:26
Now, as you’ve already mentioned earlier, we know each other from the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art, where you trained for three years.  But how did RADA helped to improve you from the actor you were at the start to the actor you are now?

James Norton:    00:26:45
Well, I met this guy called Neil Hancock who basically changed my life, and…  No.  Well, that was part of it, I made some great friends including yourself, and that has been a huge part of RADA because, you know, you then have a kind of community who you keep in touch with and compare notes with, and, you know, find confidence in that.  So that’s been great.  I think, as I said earlier, most importantly was the feeling of confidence to leave… leave that institution feeling vindicated, you know, feeling like I am now a professional actor and if I walk into an audition, I am as entitled, I am as worthy of that role as everyone else who’s lining up in that corridor waiting to audition, whereas before, I think I felt like I was a bit of a chancer and not really, you know, not really meant to be there.  And obviously, the training is incredibly important, and you know, you’ll learn an enormous amount of voice work, movement work, you know, my acting classes with the amazing Dee Cannon who very sadly passed away last year were very sort of formative and important to sort of open me up and allow me to take risks.  I have to say a lot of my training—I think I haven’t been to university beforehand, I came in a little bit more cynically than other people, and I think I questioned a bit more of the training than other people did.  Which was good and bad.  On the one hand, it meant that I didn’t necessarily trust everything which was being told to me, but on the other hand, it allowed me to pick the bits which I already did trust.  So, I came out with a kind of best off, if you know what I mean, and that helped me decipher what was meaningful to me.  And other bits might have been meaningful to other people, but for me, some of it felt really, really valuable and some of it didn’t.  And actually, and you know, they always said to us when we were there they said, you know, the value you will find in this training will only be really apparent to you later on when you’re in the industry and usually when you’re in trouble, and you can lean back on it, you can sort of use it as a safety net.  And I have definitely found that to be the case.  You know, particularly in theatre when, you know, either you’re floundering on stage in that very moment or in the run up to a film or a show, you are finding it really hard to find the character or you’re finding it really hard to embody a moment between two people, I’ve always found that in those moments I naturally have leant into something I learned at drama school, and usually, there is something deep down in my kind of toolkit which will help me get through that problem.  And for that, I’m very, very grateful for the training.  And, yeah, it was fun, wasn’t it, and it was great, it was a great institution to be in, there were so many interesting people.  I mean, I met Richard Attenborough and Alan Rickman and Neil Hancock, and, you know, these greats, you know? (laughs) No, I loved it.  I loved it.  Did you love it?  How was your experience with it?

Neil Hancock:    00:29:53
To be honest with you.  I have never experienced anything quite like it.  You know, when I went to RADA, they didn’t see the wheelchair at all, they just saw a man using a wheelchair and they tailored it, they tailored the course around me without it affecting anybody else.  And everybody just sort of integrated me as part of it.  It was probably the best time of my life, to be honest with you, James.

James Norton:    00:30:23
That’s so lovely to hear, that’s very amazing, I’m so pleased.  And I’m so pleased that I was able to be there with you and witnessed it.  Because you were, and I know that everyone in my year in the years above and below, you were very, very much the heart of that institution when you were there.  You really kind of evolved yourself.  And I remember every Friday evening or most evenings coming down to the RADA bar when we had those two for one beers, or it was Tuesday and it was a 3rd year show or whatever it was, and you will be there and you always a joy, always… you just felt like you were on cloud nine and you were sort of nourished and creatively full up to the brim and you just wanted to share it with people.  I remember it, Neil, it was a real inspiration.  You were always a joy to see.  And I think a lot of people find drama school quite tiring and quite draining and quite stress, and I think people like you who had just an extraordinary time and took everything you could from it and thrive.  You thrive because you’re a people person and there were just wonderful people there all around you.  You are a godsend I think to everyone I remember.

Neil Hancock:    00:31:34
 Well, thank you, James, thank you.  All I can remember is there are moments in my life that I can even remember and picture to this day, and it was…  You know, I often think back, you know, when you get down sometimes and you think back to those happy moments, and you think, they were good times, weren’t they?

James Norton:    00:31:56
They were really good times, you’re right, you need to bottle it up.  I mean, you know, we were very lucky not many people in the grand scheme of life, not many people got to experience what it was like to be at RADA and meet those people and perform on those stages.  And, you know, if you think about the number of people every year who applied to that institution, we’re very, very lucky and, you know, it was a shame to see people take it for granted, but then obviously, it was a joy to see you, the absolute opposite to that, take nothing for granted and absolutely love every single second of it.  And you were right, you were an inspiration because it was so special, it was a very special time.  And you’re right, you know, you must use—I do that every time I feel a bit low, I think back to the times in my life where I was most happy, and I look forward to the future times when we will be, when there will be equal nourishment and enjoy to be found in other things.

Neil Hancock:    00:32:55
And then you left RADA early, I remember, to take on the role of Miles Richards in Posh by Laura Wade at the Royal Court.  Now, I always think when you leave drama school early, it must have been quite a… I know I would leaving early feel excited, and at the same time, daunted by the prospect that I’m leaving early to take on a role at the Royal Court, how did you feel about leaving RADA early?

James Norton:    00:33:28
 Yeah, it was complicated.  I mean, I was excited because I was, you know, moving into, you know, what I trained to do which is the professional theatre, the world of professional theatre, and it was a great play and a really exciting theatre, the Royal Court, Laura Wade, Lindsay Turner who was directing, an amazing cast, Leo Bill and others, and so, you know, I was really excited to do that.  It was sad and it was a bit tricky leaving my year group halfway through, halfway through the final year because I wanted to see it out with them.  But, you know, often people leave drama school early because the agents are allowed in earlier and they can offer jobs and representation to actors at a sort of varying points throughout that last final year.  So, I’m not alone in leaving early.  It was a little bit of a shame because there was a disagreement amongst some of the senior staff at RADA when I should leave, and when I asked them permission to leave to do Posh, the initial reaction from some of the senior staff were that I shouldn’t do it and that it was better for me to stay.  And then I asked everyone I knew in the industry, and they all agreed that it was absolutely no brainer that I should definitely go and take the job.  So I did take the job, and unfortunately some of those members of staff then weren’t particularly happy with my decision and it all got a little bit acrimonious, and then it was all fine in the end and everyone was happy and we all kind of got on with it.  But there was moment there where it did feel like… I think sometimes those institutions can potentially lose sight of the overall, you know, means to an end, they’re providing a stepping stone into the industry as oppose to just providing a sort of a kind of environment which is only catering for those years that you’re there.  And I think in that moment, that there I was taken off the ball a little bit and recognising that these three years was to equip me and set me up for the profession, which it did and it had done.  So ended up leaving, and it was all fine, and Posh was an amazing experience.  And yeah, and I have been back to RADA since and it’s been lovely.

Neil Hancock:    00:35:47
I have to ask now, as I mentioned in my introduction, you have played various characters in both stage and screen, which if we were to explore them all would turn this episode into a four-hour epic, I’m sure, James.  But I would like to ask about a few of them, namely Tommy Lee Royce in Happy Valley, someone who is the complete opposite to you.  For those listeners who are unfamiliar with acting, what preparation did you have to do to become Tommy Lee Royce?

James Norton:    00:36:21
So, Tommy Lee Royce was a challenge because he is a, you know, he’s led a very different life to me and he has, you know, he had a really tough life – Sally wrote a very troubled man.  And so, it was a challenge to kind of find the inner life of that man where I share so little with his life.  And yet, that’s kind of what makes me most excited when choosing roles, because that learning experience, that sort of transformation is kind of what it is which makes me do this job, it makes it all worthwhile.  That’s where you really learn.  I mean, you know, you could play Napoleon and do all the research and the historical kind of work into on Napoleonic wars and his role in history and everything else, and you could, you know, write a PhD on Napoleon but you’d never get the experience of what it’s like to actually stand on a battlefield with the French army and go through the kind of inner workings of his mind.  And that’s really, I think, where you learn about human beings.  So, you know, I did a lot of work into kind of psychopathy and I went and met criminal psychologists at the Priory which the BBC set me up with, and did a lot of reading and went to Hebden Bridge and, you know, I immerse myself in a kind of academic understanding of Tommy.  And then, and then I had to kind of discard all of that and just embark on a private, personal, intimate journey of empathy.  And that was really hard because the man is a monster, you know, his actions and his views are something I cannot justify or condone, and I find it very, very hard to empathise with.  So that was the real challenge.  And that was really where the main preparation lay was trying to find empathy.  Because I don’t think you can play someone without finding some sort of empathy, you need to understand them from a certain perspective.  I would say that you need to love them in a way, you need to understand them from a place of compassion and love, and to love Tommy Lee Royce was near impossible.  So, it was a very weird trou-, occasionally sort of, troubling, but overall, very enriching and an exciting experience and, and one which I think I might be doing again in a not-too-distant future, but I don’t know when yet.  So, there are rumours out there that Sally’s going to give us a third instalment but nothing’s confirmed.  So, I’d say that’s sort of… I’d say that to you semi off the record, but not really, I think it’s fairly common knowledge that she’s intending to do a third one.

Neil Hancock:    00:39:23
That is very exciting, James, and I will certainly be looking forward to that.  It’s interesting because I’ve seen Happy Valley, and what I find incredible about watching Tommy Lee Royce, particularly towards the end of the first series, is that you almost get a sense from Tommy that he almost wishes that his life was different, you know, he’s got a son, and I think he almost wishes that he knows what his life actually is, but there’s a moment where I think he wishes that he had a better life.  Do you agree with that?

James Norton:    00:40:04
 100%.  I mean, that’s what Sally wrote, so the character was so real and rich because he wasn’t just the stock villain who, you know, raped and murdered and just caused complete mayhem and destruction, he was someone who was a victim, you know, a victim of his own mental health issues, a victim of his circumstance, a victim of the trauma which we discussed a lot, we think that he had been badly abused as a child and wasn’t cared for and wasn’t picked up by the welfare system.  And so often is sort of serial killer and a psychopath, a very dangerous, aggressive psychopath, kind of a mixture of trauma often at an early age, mixed with a psychological disability, something significantly wrong with their mental health which, you know, doesn’t allow them to feel basic empathy and compassion.  And when you mix the two, when you mix the traumatised damaged child who believes that the world is inherently hostile and dog eat dog applies, and you know, in order to survive they need to attack first rather than wait to be attacked, and you have someone who doesn’t feel empathy, doesn’t feel compassion, doesn’t have the capacity to feel compassion, the two mix together are a kind of perfect storm and create a Tommy Lee Royce, a psychopath and a killer.  And when you think about it that way, you know, to live your life feeling like everyone and everything is going to attack you, and if you don’t attack it first you won’t survive, can you imagine how miserable and sad and painful a life that would be?  And I think, you know, the truth is with his son, that horrible scene at the end of the first series, all he wants at that moment is to take his son away from this world because he thinks the world is such a horrible place, and actually that’s the kind of first act of love he’s really ever offered anyone is this bizarre, inverted, mad generosity which is to kill his son.  But I think, yeah, you are right, I think through all of that mess and my—I think he definitely would like to have led a better life, and I think probably recognises that he is the anomaly and that most people are able to live in this world and form some semblance of happiness and Tommy was never allowed that, and so that’s where the rage comes from and that’s where the sense of ostracization and pain.  That’s where I tapped into in order to find the empathy.  At the same time it's tricky because you don’t want to go anywhere near condoning or even explaining or justifying his actions because there are victims of similar crimes in real life, and for those people, there should never be an expectation to find empathy and justification because, you know, Tommy’s… whatever you say about the man himself, his actions were totally unjustifiable, and so I’m always a little bit reticent to talk about Tommy in a kind of disclaimer way in a way of justifying or explaining his crimes because in isolation, they are abhorrent and the man was abhorrent and…

Neil Hancock:    00:43:28
They are indeed.  And the one thing that you did so well with it is even when you weren’t speaking, James, you could feel this sense of unease, this sinister unease, and I was thinking what’s this guy going to do next?

James Norton:    00:43:46
Can you feel it now, Neil?  I’m doing it right now.

Neil Hancock:    00:43:52
(laughs) No.  But you did such a fantastic job with it.  And it captivated me, I thought, oh my word.  As you say, this man is absolutely horrific, I don’t know what he’s going to do, and yet also noticed, I also noticed, James, the cheeky little reference you did to War & Peace when you disguised yourself and you went into a charity shop as Tommy Lee Royce and out comes the book War & Peace.

James Norton:    00:44:23
Can I say, for the umpteenth time, I promise you no one believes me.  Everyone thinks that was intentional because obviously quite soon after that show, I then played Andrei Bolkonsky in War & Peacee.  But the truth is unless Sally Wainwright is prophetic and can look into the future, she went into the charity shop and picked a book at random and decided that it’d be quite funny if I was reading War & Peace.  It was at least a year, if not more, before the Andrew Davies BBC War & Peace production was even conceived of, so there was no way it was a link.  But everyone, I cannot tell you the number of people who have picked me up on that and said, “Oh, so the nod.”  You might not believe me, but it was a total coincidence.

Neil Hancock:    00:45:09
You’ve also played characters, and you name one in Prince Andrei from War & Peace, you’ve also played characters from literature.  When you approach these roles, does it help you to have read the book that they’re from or do you find it’s more—do you find it’s better to have the script adaptation and nothing else?  Do you find that sufficient enough?

James Norton:    00:45:32
Yeah, you know, it’s a really good question that because people assume that you will always benefit from reading the book and lots of people, lots of directors, writers, filmmakers, playwrights, whatever they are, they  do stand by that, you know, like Greta Gerwig was very, very adamant that we read Little Women, and Tom Harper and the production team behind War & Peace were also very keen that we read War & Peace because, you know, both of those were quite kind of close to the book and they’re both these amazing pieces of literature which contain an immense amount of informative informa—you know, stuff that’s really rich, juicy stuff about the character.  So, you will be a fool to not read those books if you’re performing in a production or an adaptation which is relatively close to the original source material.  There are other occasions when there are have been artistic licence… there has been an artistic licence taken, and the adaptation is a little different.  I did a production of Lady Chatterley’s Lover and in that sense, in that case we did—it was a little bit different, it was not a kind of complete bastardisation of the original but it was… it took a liberty here and there.  And so, in that moment, it didn’t necessarily feel like it was all that relevant to read the original material, my character was far more sympathetic in our production than he was in the original book.  And so reading the book perhaps would have then… I would have felt that I have a responsibility to honour the original and then it would have potentially jeopardised the production which we were putting together, and so, it’s a case-by-case situation, I think.  It doesn’t always… it doesn’t mean that we should always read it, but I think take the advice and the view from the general kind of the production director.  In general, if you’re able to recognise the differences, in general, a source material is going to help because, you know, otherwise, you go away and you have to make up a lot of the biography and the characteristics and the private life of the character.  And if you’ve got it all there written down by the original author, then, you know, generally more often than not it’s useful to read, but not always.

Neil Hancock:    00:48:01
And all the roles you’ve played have been very varied and wide ranging, with every character I never felt I was seeing the same thing twice.  Was this a deliberate choice by you to do parts that increase your range, or was it merely chance that these parts came your way?

James Norton:    00:48:21
 A bit of both, I think.  I mean, I’m very lucky to have been offered or, you know, there have been a range of roles which have come along and my agents in the US have been brilliant and quick to present roles to me which are always different from the previous body of work.  But also, I think it’s a proactive choice, I’ve always wanted to make sure that every role I’ve done is different because, you know, there are going to be similarities to roles you play but if you do exactly the same role over and over again, you stop learning.  And so, for me, it’s about making sure that each job, each human being who you’re representing teaches you something new and something different.  And that’s, I guess, the—you know, as I say to you, for me it always comes down to learning, it come down to experience and learning about the human condition.  And so, keeping it varied, keeping it new and fresh, just keeps you learning, keeps you experiencing, and that’s kind of why I like to look for the sort of oblique turns.  Also, for me, it’s more fun because, you know, if you get to play, I don’t know, Tommy Lee Royce one day and then Sidney Chambers as the vicar in Grantchester to the next, I just love the variation.  I love the challenge.  I don’t want to be in soap opera for 30 years and play the same character.  It doesn’t interest me and I think I’d find it limiting.  But having said that, I don’t want to make a, you know, I don’t want to be disparaging towards people who choose that because there’s something to be said for playing the same role for a long time because you know that character so intimately that it almost becomes a kind of, you know, an alter ego and in that sense, you know, I’ll never know what it’s like to spend 10 years in a character and know their nature and they’re in their private life that intimately, so I can only guess what that feels like.  So there is argument for both.

Neil Hancock:    00:50:30
And as well as all the screen work you do, you also go back to do theatre work, like when I saw you in Belleville back in, I think it was January 2018 at the Donmar Warehouse.  What attracts you to a theatre project?  I mean, for instance, let’s take Bug and Belleville, you had done a lot of theatre prior to say doing TV work like Happy Valley, Grantchester and War & Peace.  I think you’d worked with Trevor Nunn in The Lion in Winter and things like that.  What attracts you to the different theatre projects you’ve done?

James Norton:    00:51:08
I think it’s a mixture.  Again, it’s the same thing with film.  It’s a mixture of…  Mostly, it comes down to script because within the script is obviously, it contains characters and world, and, you know, the kind of the journey which you’re going to go on over that period of time while you’re working on that production, it’s all really contained in the script, and then, you’ve also got obviously the theatre director and the cast you’re going to work with.  So, it’s a kind of collection of things which kind of inform one’s choice.  You know, I’m aware that I sound a little… (sighs) I don’t want to sound presumptuous to think that I have loads of choices all the time and I can pick and choose, that’s not the case at all.  You know, sometimes you just want to work and you want to earn some money and you have a livelihood to make, and it might not be the perfect play or the perfect character or the perfect director but you just want to get up on that stage, and that’s often happened to me and as well, you know, to lots of actors.  So, I mean, I loved working with people like Trevor Nunn because he’s, you know, he’s so experienced in such a kind of institution, and I learned a lot and it was a lot of fun, that was… you know, I was a quite a lot younger, and I was working with Joanna Lumley and Robert Lindsay and, you know, that was an amazing experience with Trevor Nunn.  And then, you know, doing things like that phase with Richard Wilson who is I think one of the best directors I’ve ever worked with, and I have so much love and respect for that man, he’s the best, he did a Polly Stenham play called That Face off at Sheffield.

Neil Hancock:    00:52:42
I’ve read it.

James Norton:    00:52:43
You read it.  You know it.  It’s an amazing play.  And to be totally honest, I wouldn’t have known that was going to be one of the most special experiences in theatre I’d ever have.  It’s a new piece of writing, it was a great piece of writing.  I didn’t know much about Richard as a director, hadn’t worked with Frankie Barber, Al Petrie, I didn’t know them really, but it turned out to be such a special experience.  So, you know, you put together all the bits and pieces which you have in front of you, and you make the decision and you go for it, take the risk, it’ll never be exactly as you expect or predict but it’ll often throw curveballs and challenges and some heartbreaks and some wonderful moments.  But generally, I’ve been lucky, and you know, you always have… I lean really heavily on my agents, I have an incredible team, amazing agent called Saskia Mulder in the UK, and I have an amazing two agents as well in America called Stephanie Ritz and Brandon Liebman, and they are WME, and they are brilliant, they help me and guide me in all my choices.  So you don’t make the choices in isolation, you don’t make them entirely on your own.  You have a great—I have some good people who I trust to help me along the way.

Neil Hancock:    00:53:54
Well, I remember Belleville fondly because I can remember thinking, I don’t know where this play is going to go.  You know?  And I was shut they’re thinking, right, I think this is going to happen, and then something completely different happened, and that’s what I go to the theatre for.  How do you think theatre complements your screen work?

James Norton:    00:54:14
Interesting question.  I think that you need theatre, I think.  Well, I need it to remind me of the kind of process…  There’s something about the space, the theatre stage, it’s such a sacred space, and, you know, it’s where my training, where our training began and was rooted in and it’s kind of where I started out in.  So, I guess, that for me, the very pure form of storytelling and transformation happens in theatre, and I guess in a way I’m kind of borrowing from that every time I’m on a film set.  I’m kind of in some way creating in my head and in the space a sort of sacred space, a stage.  In a way…  It’s all theatre, it’s all just different forms of theatre, and there happens to be a big piece of electrical equipment just like stuck in my face, but I…  In a way, I guess, in a way, what I’m saying is there is no difference really, but because of the route I’ve taken through theatre into film, and because that preceded—my theatre work preceded film, and because I think for everyone that is storytelling in its purest form, you know, that was what the, you know, the ancient Greeks and the amazing kind of history of theatre which we have through Greek tragedy to Shakespeare to the Royal Court, whatever you want it, you know, they’re all harking back to something very pure and special, and I think tapping into that as an actor is, it just is a force, it’s a fuel, it’s kind of what carries us, and then filming is just another medium of that same process.  And so, I guess, yeah, I mean I love to go back to theatre because it just takes me back to where I began and where I fell in love with it, and it makes you a better actor.  You know, the big fundamental difference which actors always talk about is that on film you can go again and that in theatre you can’t, and there is no safety net on theatre, you can’t just sort of forget you lines and mess up and not give the absolute biggest best, most heartfelt performance you can, because you don’t get a second chance.  And so, when the pressure is that high and the stakes are that high, you are called upon to be your best, and that’s why theatre is so good for us, it’s such a great training ground because there ain't anywhere to hide, you know, you have to be your best version of your performance every night, every time, every minute on that stage because otherwise, the, you know, couple from Scotland who have travelled down on the train and paid for a hotel and paid a £100 for the West End ticket or whatever it might be, or they’re just—or it’s a small play in Scarborough at the Stephen Joseph Theatre and someone’s out on the anniversary date night, or whatever it is, you know, those people have turned up and it means a lot to them to be there and you have responsibility to honour that and do a fucking good performance.  And so, there’s no kind of half-hearted sort of second-rate performance in theatre.  Whereas in film, not that there ever is in film but you can have a warmup take and maybe have another one at the end for free and mess around and try it again and do it in French and whatever it might be.  And, you know, that’s what’s I guess a little different is the kind of… if I… personally I thrive under pressure and I thrive, I love the feeling of adrenaline before going on stage, and so to go back to theatre and remind yourself of that to then carry that into film only makes my film work better, I hope.

Neil Hancock:    00:58:04
And now, this is the big question, I suppose.  What has been your greatest challenge to date in life, career, or both?

James Norton:    00:58:14
Interesting.  My biggest challenge…  So, well, you know…  My biggest challenge to date.  Well, two that sort of spring to mind.  One was that I was quite badly bullied at school and, well, I was badly bullied at school for a long time and I really had a pretty grim time, and it’s only really now in my later life as an adult that I’m recognising that effect and what that has done to me and, you know, with the help of a therapist untying some of that stuff, which really wasn’t very pleasant from, you know, age kind of 12, 13 through to kind of 18.  I’ve kind of…  In a way, in a weird perverse way, I’m kind of grateful for it because it’s definitely formed a part of me in the way I am, and allowed me to maybe access characters and people I’m playing in a certain way and it’s given me certain empathy.  And I definitely feel like when the people arrive on a film set, if I’m playing, you know, a Sidney Chambers or whatever and I’m playing the lead, I just can’t stand anyone being marginalised or ostracised or, you know, left out.  So, that’s something to be grateful for, I guess.  But on the whole, it wasn’t very pleasant part of my life and so, you know, I definitely kind of—you know, it’s first world problems as well, being bullied, lots of people are bullied and it’s horrible, but I got through it and that’s the main thing, and I came out the other side and I feel very grateful for my education in the school I went to, in other ways, and if it allowed me to be a bit more empathetic then that’s okay.  The other big one is obviously being diagnosed as a diabetic when I was in my early 20s, when I was at drama school, and that’s been a challenge to have a chronic condition which I know will probably, you know, it’ll probably make my latter years a little more complicated.  Hopefully it won’t, but it may do, it may have effects later on in life and that’s always a bit scary thing to consider as diabetic, because the complications which we will feel may not happen until down the line, but you don’t often dwell on that, and in the day to day I just have to very mindful of my health and my sugar levels and what I eat and how I exercise and all those kinds of things.  But again, you know, it’s manageable and it doesn’t prohibit me often – very occasionally it prohibits me but it doesn’t sort of stop me, and I know that diabetes and I know that other people find diabetes, much harder to control and live with, and so again I’m lucky to have good care, my sister’s a diabetic and my mum’s a diabetic so I have a lot of people in my life to lean on and learn from and get support from.  But, you know, Neil, you know better than anyone, you are the most empathetic man I think I’ve ever met, the most kind of kind and generous and big-hearted person, and I know that you’ve had more challenges more than most, certainly more than me, and yet you have not a glimmer of resentment, or at least you’ve never shown it to me, and you’re just—you just take every moment in life and get as much as you can from it.  And, I don’t know, I mean I—I don’t know what I’m saying other than if someone who has managed to, against adversity, take life and wring everything out of it, you’re that person.  And so, as you know, you know, these challenges are there to test us and make us stronger and more empathetic and more compassionate, and if there’s anyone who’s an example of that, it’s you my friend.
 
Neil Hancock:    01:02:07
Well, I’m going to be careful here, James, more of these compliments, I’m not going to be able to get the headphones around my ears for future interviews, I have to say. (chuckles) But in terms of your diabetes, you play the lead in a lot of dramas.  Now, I’ve done a TV role and I know the hours required to work in TV are quite long.  How do you manage to do what you do as an actor, and make sure that your health is up to scratch at the same time, if that’s not too personal question?

James Norton:    01:02:48
Not at all.  You know, there are challenges, you know, I have to be careful about what I eat and if I have my sugar levels, if they go out of joint and become badly controlled, then there’s kind of quite immediate risks.  If I go severely low on a sugar and what’s called hyperglycaemic, then as a diabetic, you know, I can faint and the worst case scenario is, you know, if you don’t tend to it quickly put sugar back onboard, then you can end up very ill and the worst case scenario is that you end up in a coma.  And, you know, insulin is my life force, it’s what keeps me alive, but too much insulin and not enough sugar, often along with exercise or late night or not enough carbohydrate in the meal which is on the set, you know, when we’re in a remote country location and there’s not enough food or whatever it might be, or I have forgotten my fruit juice, there are certain moments when, as you know, filming is very unpredictable and it throws you a curveball, it does make diabetes hard to manage.  And I have to be very, very careful that in those moments when there’s 10 minutes left of the day and we need to get this shot, and it’s 11 o’clock at night and everyone’s cold, and you know, we’re going to… if we go over it’s going to cost the production X thousand pounds or whatever, if that happens to be the moment when I am crashing on sugar and I need 10 minutes out, I have to be brave enough and assertive enough to say, I need this time, I need to go and tend to my health.  And generally, 99% of the time everyone is incredibly understanding, and I know that’s where that…  Luckily for me, diabetes has never actually prohibited filming to happen, and every time I’ve had to take five minutes out, the director is incredibly kind and forgiving—not forgiving, that’s not the right word at all, compassionate and understanding.  And of course they should be because, as you know, one’s health and… you know, maintain it if you have a condition which you have to look after, that’s incredibly important, so I just had to learn to be assertive about it and take it into control into my own hands.  And one of the first things I do is I tell the director and I tell the first aid that I’m a diabetic, so if you see me and I give you a little wave, that just means I’m going to go and take a couple of minutes, find some jelly babies and get some sugar onboard, or go and have an insulin injection.  And I’ve told them that very early on and every time I then give them that wave, they understand, and then stuff has to just take a beat.  So, you know, the longer I’ve done it, the more confident I’ve got and the more efficient I have got in understanding how to work as a film actor and a theatre actor and work alongside diabetes.  You know, stuff like every time I do a play now, I asked the costume designer to sew me an—if it’s a period costume, sew me an extra pocket so that I can carry my dextrose tablet and a small cereal bar so that if on the off chance I go low on sugar on stage, I can then just look up stage and eat some glucose tablets and then I can bring myself back up.  Because if you go hyper on stage and don’t have sugar, you aren’t going to get that play done, you know, there’s no way you’re getting to the curtain call, you’re going to be on your back.  So, there are ways of improvising and there are certain techniques and tricks of the trade which I’ve learned which give me confidence to manage the diabetes alongside acting, and with a bit of help and a bit of, you know, compassion from your fellow actors and team, it’s fine and it works.  I’m sure you can testify to that.  I mean, my diabetes, in comparison to being a wheelchair user is very, very small challenge.  I mean, it doesn’t really compare, but if you’ve got the right people in the production, and I know that your parents and your Dad who is with you in, at least at RADA and then they’re on set is just an amazing man.  Neil’s Dad, if you guys don’t know this, and Neil’s Mum, both of them are just amazing people and very supportive.  And I think if you got good people like that alongside you, anything’s possible, and any director or filmmaker who isn’t going to show you that necessary consideration you can go and fuck off. (chuckles)

Neil Hancock:    01:07:29
Well, I have to say, having watched the War & Peace, you certainly wouldn't have had a problem on the set there because the amount of banquets you had, James, I have to say… goodness me.

James Norton:    01:07:41
I know, I know, I mean, that’s the handy thing as well is that I can just write it into my rider as a diabetic that I just need copious amounts of delicious food in every scene, and hopefully when I’m Tom Cruise, I can just, yeah, just make sure that I’ve got cake and chocolate in every role and everything, that’s my diabetic rider.

Neil Hancock:    01:08:04
Now, you’ve already achieved a great deal, what’s next?

James Norton:    01:08:10
Well, I’m lucky enough to have a production company now called Rabbit Track Pictures which I run with an amazing producer called Kitty Kaletsky, and we are about a year and a half old now, it obviously coincided with the pandemic.  So we’ve had a bit of a sort of funny ride, at the beginning at least, of the building of the company.  But it’s going really well, and I guess, what’s really exciting for me is that it’s a whole new skill set, I’m learning what it’s like to be on the other side of the coin and be producing and building projects from kind of the moment of conception, the moment when the idea is had and we think, right, let’s take this idea to a writer, or we then take this article or this book and we option it and we then build a writing team around it.  And, you know, all of the kind of various ways in which a script arrive on an actor’s desk, which is for me in the last 10 years I’ve just sort of been given a script by my agent and told to read it and decide whether I want to do it or not, and now I’m learning what it’s like to have full ownership over a project, over a story, and that’s so exciting and so empowering.  I feel let free, I really do, I feel like, you know… oddly as an actor, you only realise later on how smaller kind of brushstroke you are in the big canvas of putting a project together, you know, you’re made to feel very important because without you, the film or TV show or theatre, that piece of theatre doesn’t really happen.  In that sense, actors are often given a false sense of kind of grandiose importance, but actually, the amount of work which goes into building a script is so big, so much, and actually you only really then realise, you only really then realise how small an actor’s contribution is to the overall, you know, the beast.  So, I mean you know this, Neil, you’ve written—you know, I mean I’m maybe I’m being an indiscrete, Neil has written a play, which I cannot wait to see one day whether it’s next year or next 10 years, but one day, I’m going to insist that I see it or at least read it.  So, you know, you know what it’s like, the amount of time and emotional investment it takes to write and to edit and to write notes and implement those notes and then cast and find the directors, it’s endless.  So, that’s been a real eye opener for me and something I’ve really, I've loved, and were only really the beginning of that journey.  And I would love one day to not only produce but I would love to direct something, not sure what yet, I’m waiting for the perfect opportunity to do that, but I guess what’s next is more acting, more working with hopefully great people but also a bit more producing and other stuff along the way.

Neil Hancock:    01:11:00
I have to ask this question.  Do the numbers 007 mean anything to you?

James Norton:    01:11:07
My phone number when I was growing up ended in…  But other than that, no.  I don’t know what you’re talking about. (chuckles)

Neil Hancock:    01:11:18
(chuckles) Are you going to be the next James Bond?

James Norton:    01:11:21
Neil, that’s so nice to chat to you.  Thank you so much.  As always, you know how to ask the right questions.  No, look.  I mean, no, I don’t know.  I mean, it’s not up to me.  It’s definitely not up to me.  It’s definitely up to lots of very important people.  And there has been a lot of speculation over the last two, three, even four years now, and there were lots of names thrown around by the press, and as far as I know, that’s as far as it goes.  It’s journalists who are creating quick and easy clickbait to get their, you know, their articles read and their newspapers sold, and other than that, it’s based on very little.  And if there is approaches being made by Barbara Broccoli and the like, it’s with other people.  But it’s also very kind of fun and amusing to be involved in those conversations.  I mean, if you told the sort of seven-year-old James who was going and doing plays at the local youth theatre or the 15-year-old James at the Stephen Joseph doing work experience, that I’d even be…  I mean, even uttered in the same sentences as that and my name, it would just be ridiculous to me and so in that sense, I’ve got to kind of, I do sometimes go, “Oh, this is just absurd,” but beyond that, beyond feeling a bit baffled and bemused by it all, I promise you it’s just rumour.

Neil Hancock:    01:12:44
And on that note, James Norton, thank you for coming on to the Neil on Wheels show.  It’s been lovely chatting to you, and I hope you can come on again soon.

James Norton:    01:12:54
Neil, it’s been a pleasure.  I have loved it.  I have a lot of love and respect for you, my friend, and to spend an hour and a half, or however long it’s been, just whizzed by chatting away with you has been great.  So, thank you very much.  It’s been a privilege.

Neil Hancock:    01:13:08
Thank you, my friend.  Take care.

James Norton:    01:13:09
 Take care, buddy.

Neil Hancock:    01:13:10 
James and I sat down to record this podcast in January 2021, and so some of the references to his current work will sound a little out of date.  To bring you up to speed, since we spoke, James has completed shooting the second series of The Nevers, as well as produced his first movie with his new company Rabbit Track Pictures.  If you haven’t caught it already, it’s called Rogue Agent, and stars Gemma Arterton alongside James.  You can find it on Netflix, and I highly recommend it, especially if you enjoy seeing James playing a nasty piece of work.  And perhaps most exciting of all, he confirmed that he has completed filming on the third series of Happy Valley.  We spoke last week on the phone and James told me on the exclusive that he thinks this is the best series yet.  He also told me that Tommy has a new hairstyle and that it’s his most audacious look so far.  If you enjoyed listening to this podcast, please follow me on Twitter @NeilOnWheelsPod and also on Instagram, theneilonwheelspodcast.  Until next time. 

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Duration 74 minutes and 26 seconds